Apr 6, 2020
For All Abilities – The Podcast Lanie Zipoy - Life is a Preexisting Condition
In this episode, I interview Lanie Zipoy- . On the podcast, Lanie talks about her ongoing diagnosis of several concussions and living and working with a brain injury. We discuss her career as a filmmaker and working from home and COVID 19 with a disability.
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Full Transcription from Otter.ai
Betsy Furler 0:03
Hi, everybody, thank you so much for tuning into for all abilities, the podcast, I am so glad you're all here to hear from yet another person who is living life with a brain that may be a little bit different from other people's brains, but has really led her into an amazing career. It's super exciting for us to have Lanie Zipoy here with us today. And Lanie and I met because we were on a panel at Dell. Lanie is a filmmaker and she's going to tell us all about herself. So lanie thank you so much for being here. Welcome. And why don't you introduce yourself to my audience and tell them kind of a little bit about you?
Lanie Zipoy 0:48
Great. Thanks, Betsy. I love your podcast, so I'm very happy to be on. Yes. As you said, I'm landing. Boy. I'm a Brooklyn based filmmaker. And I have been doing And for the last nine years, over the course of those years for different traumatic brain injuries, or as people know them as concussions, and it's just changed the way that I live really changed everything about my life, and but in ways that were profound and have been helpful, in some ways, as well as challenging.
Betsy Furler 1:22
So as you know, and other listeners know, usually I asked you what you were like as a child and for you, it's a little different because when you were a child, you were a totally neurotypical person. So, but I still want to hear I still like to hear people's childhood stories. So tell us a little bit about what you were like as a kid how school was, what you love to do, what college was like for you just give us a little a little glimpse into your life as a child and young adult.
Lanie Zipoy 1:53
Yeah, I grew up in Memphis, Tennessee and a blended family that had two older brothers a younger sister, and we were pretty far apart in age, all of us so that was pretty interesting. But like you said, I grew up very neuro typical and that I was a pretty high achiever. I loved all subjects, but you know, particularly shown in science and in English, I love those. I also loved theater and a bunch of things. I was an athlete, I played softball, volleyball, basketball, and even some tennis and golf and bowling. Yeah, I was very active and I played softball through college and volleyball. So you know, was a very high achiever, both on the field and then academically. I love school. I loved going every day. My mom always joked that when I would come home, I would sit right down, do my homework was very focused. And then she had my sister and my sister would come in and she expected her to do the exact same thing. And my sister never ever sat down. And did our homework it was always much more of a struggle. She was like, wait, what happened? What did I do, right? It was just we were very different. My sister also was very high achieving academically, but not focused in the same way that I was. And so then I went off to college and, you know, got to study about different cultures and, and also studied some biology. I did some biology research when I was in high school and through college and really loved that, but ended up doing something really studying more academically in the arts, which I ended up loving. And then right after college, I did something that was a little bit different is that I went to massage therapy school in Seattle. And it was a very medically based massage therapy school. So it blended a lot of what I knew in terms of anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, and that stuff, but also with hands on healing. And then I moved to New York and things sort of changed from there.
Betsy Furler 3:57
So when Where did you go to college?
Lanie Zipoy 4:00
I went to the University of Pennsylvania in Philadelphia. Oh, nice.
Betsy Furler 4:04
And I am well, I grew up in Texas. I also kind of have a piece of Tennessee in my heart and my childhood because my dad got his doctorate in a program that was Vanderbilt and University of the south and so on a Tennessee. Mm hmm. And so we spent every summer for I think, seven years. And Suwanee, Tennessee.
Lanie Zipoy 4:26
That's a beautiful place. It's a
Betsy Furler 4:27
great place. It couldn't have been more perfect right to get to his little girl to get to run around there. So I love Tennessee. So once you so I guess let's fast forward, what did you tell us about what your career was and then how you acquired the pen injury, and then how your career has changed.
Lanie Zipoy 4:49
Wow. So for about a decade when I moved to New York, I needed a job and I ended up working in fashion. And I loved it. I was creative in some ways, and Through part of it, I got to work with fashion designers from Target to Marc Jacobs in terms of developing color stories and what that is, what are going to be the hot colors this year, what's going to be what everybody's going to want to wear in both jewelry and clothing. And to to arrive at that you look at like what movies are coming out what paintings or what artwork is really circling right now where is the world. And so it sort of brought a lot of the things that I like humanity is studying culture and put it into color. And so I did that for about a decade. And then I have the opportunity to transition to work more in the arts, in theater and PR because I had done some PR while I was in college and had had helped some people on the side while I was working in fashion. And I started doing PR for theater and I loved it. It was great. But I quickly transitioned into producing theater because I saw a lot of plays that I loved and they weren't getting the attention that they deserved in terms of getting longer productions and people being aware of them. So I started producing theater. And it was jury producing theater that I sustained my first concussion light in a theater fell on my head. And I had a skull fracture. And I'm very lucky that I survived that it was about nine years ago this week, actually. And it was it was really hard to recover. You know, I was working for myself without a lot of support. And so now I'm a huge advocate with anybody that I know who suffers a concussion, that the time immediately after is so essential to taking care of yourself to self isolating, to making sure that you're not doing anything that causes harm later on. And also to understand that some of these effects for some people go away in a couple of weeks if they're mild. If they're more severe, they can have more or less lifelong effects and understanding what those are is really important.
Betsy Furler 7:05
Well and I think as people who are very highly motivated and very you know, I guess product driven as we are, that that's really hard to take that time to slow down. And it's hard for the people around you to realize you need that time. You know, I'm sure people were just like happy you were alive and then like, Okay, come on, let's go on with life as it was before.
Lanie Zipoy 7:37
Oh, completely, they expect that you're going to just snap your fingers and you're going to be back at one right ready to hit the ground running. And you're just not I mean, both physically, mentally, socially, emotionally. Like in every aspect, you're not ready to go. I mean, I I describe it that for me, particularly after the first one and then unfortunately, I had a Second one that was an accident on the subway about six months later that was in the same location. So that was really not great for my brain. But you know, the recovery from those two took a long, long time. And there were often times where I describe it where I didn't feel like my brain was attached to my body. I felt like I really had no, it was wobbly. It moved and I wasn't sure which way it was going to move. It was slightly like being constantly seasick or just not feeling like you had your feet firmly on the ground, not able to think and if you've ever had a computer that's getting old and you feel like the processing and everything is running down and it's really slow, and the green gears are grinding, it would have that sort of effect as well. And then if you top it with other side effects such as insomnia, and then later for me some other things I've had which are choking and inability to swallow and stuff. It just it becomes Pretty monumental in your life. It's sort of takes over. And everybody's like, oh, but you're fine. You're alive. You can you can
Betsy Furler 9:07
talk. Look, you look okay. Like you always have
Lanie Zipoy 9:09
lunch. And exactly. And that is really the thing is that everybody thinks that you're you are processing everything the same way that you were and you just aren't. I have, I've luckily been able to go to some support groups, and those have been really wonderful. And I remember the first time I went this woman who had been in a terrible car accident, and it said, and that it killed her fiance she had lived but had had a really terrible brain injury. She said, you know, that's the day I died. She was I was reborn as somebody new and different, but who I was before. I've never been that person again. And I really feel that I've never been the person I was nine years ago. And, but I've learned how to live with it. And I'm grateful for it. In many ways. It's been a great teacher, but there are still days or times Where you kind of miss that person that you were right before the accident.
Betsy Furler 10:04
And things were probably much easier for you prior to the accident.
Lanie Zipoy 10:09
And they were they were but you know, I now know if problems or things come up that I'm probably a little bit more resilient than I was, you know, there was something that was great about being able to learn really easily thinking like being able to have a great memory that actually would scare people at times that I could remember figures and things about them. They're like, wait, what, what's going on? Are you how do you remember that and I just did naturally. But in some ways, I'm kind of grateful now that I have developed new tools, new skills, new abilities, to not give up and to keep trying, and also to be kind with myself, when I don't remember something. Or, or if it takes me a little bit longer. I'm just like, I'll come back to it and I'm not judging myself about it. I'm just like, okay. You will remember it at some point because even though I've had four traumatic brain injuries, the thing I know at the end whenever they happen is okay, I will come back in some fashion maybe not exactly the way I was, but I will figure out a way to function.
Betsy Furler 11:16
Right, right. So tell us what you were doing now for work professionally and because it's really super fascinating and as my audience already knows, I love film and I also got to be the a consultant on a film as the disability consultant. I've just had so much fun on the SAT with them and, and then getting to see the final. The final product is so amazing and it's in on the the film, what do you call it? I've lost I've lost the word.
Lanie Zipoy 11:56
Excel, is it streaming or is it
Betsy Furler 11:58
no film festival circuit. Oh, that's great. Yeah. Which, who knows what's gonna happen with that? But anyway, the Yeah, so it's it's been super exciting. So I just can't i can't wait to hear more about your film. So I wanted to tell our audience kind of what you're doing now and, and how your brain in this different way your brain works has kind of kind of like played a factor in that.
Lanie Zipoy 12:24
Yeah you know thank you yeah I'm very excited and I'm with you Betsy being part of film has always been a dream when I was when I was little I loved adult films, not cartoons I would make my mom take me to see films in the theater that were for adults, and she would and we would discuss that it was great, but I get you know, I get the chance to admit some short films, but I got the chance to direct feature film called the subject which stars Jason Biggs known for American Pie and many other things in a dramatic role where he plays a documentarian who in the making of his previous film, caught the murder of his subject and African American teen on tape. And two years later, he's dealing with the moral fallout of that and the ramifications of Could he have done something? And as an artist, how was he responsible to this kid he was filming and what should he do? And how should we be in the world? And, you know, I think with everybody having cell phone cameras now, we're all we're probably all going to be faced with that at some point. Do you film What's happening? Or do you ever jump in if you see something in front of you, and what is our calling, so it deals with that and it also stars ingenue Ellis, who I've been a big fan of for about two decades, and she was just Emmy nominated for when they see us on Netflix and Annabel Acosta and Mr. Patterson, I got to work with some really fantastic actors they knew from both screen and from stage so for me, it was really a delight. And it was great because sort of as concussions teach you that you know, to be resilient But also that you can't do everything yourself, which was maybe before I had my traumatic brain injuries, I probably thought I could do more by myself than I do now. That film and I think you would have seen it when you onset is so collaborative, it takes everybody to make amazing
Betsy Furler 14:19
i get i that surprised me. When I got to have that experience, and I was so blown away by how, how much everyone works together and helps each other so much. And it felt so giving. And so yeah, so collaborative. That's the perfect word for it. Yeah,
Lanie Zipoy 14:41
yeah. And it's wonderful. And that's why the credits are so long at the end of the film, because it takes every single one of those people to make it happen. And so for me, what was great about it was that being the director, you listen to everybody from all the different departments, but you get to make the final decision in terms of how things are going to proceed. Are we going to shoot this way? Do we need to do another take? What do the actors needs? And the truth is I think concussions were very helpful for me and becoming a better director and really listening and asking the actors, first of all, what do you need? And you know, when you and I were talking about during this interview, one of the questions you asked me was, what time of day is good for you? And that was so refreshing to hear. Because most people won't think about that. But because of my concussions because I have ongoing insomnia that I'm okay with, I can manage. I'm not great in the morning is much better for me to meet in the afternoon. So, you know, I talked to the actors, like how do they like best to work what is good for them? And you know, that sort of care and attention like one of them said to me, I've never been asked that ever. And I think that those sorts of lessons those small, actually can impact your day. I mean, whether you get what you want on any given shoot day. or you don't. So I feel very fortunate that I'm getting to work in a field that I love. And part of the reason that I made this pivot to directing was because I knew after going through all my concussions that I was resilient that I could make it through, but that I needed to live out what my dream was, and what I really wanted to do, and that is to direct film.
Betsy Furler 16:21
That's amazing. And I do think that sometimes when something traumatic happens to you, or you have an injury, or in my case, it's my son, my I have a 22 year old, he's medically complex. I learned, you know, before I had him, I really thought I was in control of this world. And I quickly learned that I'm not Yeah, and you know, it's and I've learned that more and more and more over the years. It's kind of a lesson I need to keep learning but I think that sometimes when something like your traumatic brain injury happens, you realize that kind of two things One that you're not in control, yes, but also that you are steering the ship and you, and you only have this one life to live. And so doing something you love is really important.
Lanie Zipoy 17:17
It's it's so true. And as I mentioned, I'm really into sports. And as I was making my movie, there's a lot of stress. I mean, making a movie is like starting your own company with about 200 people working for you and getting everything off the ground. So there's a lot. And, you know, there were just a couple of things that I would think about with regard to control. One is, just take the next step. Don't go beyond that. take the next step, and then you'll find the next one. But the other thing is, I'm a huge baseball fan. I love the New York Mets. And I've gotten more into them actually post traumatic brain injury because another thing it's taught me is find your joy. Find the things that make you happy and lean into those wherever you So I'm a huge one direction fan. I love corgis. I love the Mets. And I have no qualms about those. Because if I need to, I can watch any of those things, and I'll feel better and it'll set me for a good day. But while I was making my film, one of the Mets pitchers, Jacob Grom was having this amazing season. But the Mets weren't playing well behind them. They would never score new runs, he wouldn't win the game, but he would pitch phenomenally each time he went out. And after every interview, they would ask him, how are you able to do that? And he said, I'm only focused on what I can control. And, you know, as I that was my mantra, so every day I would wake up and I would say, what would Jacob Grom do today? Like what what is in my control? And that's all I can answer. And you know, just to have that reminder in sports, where every every day is a winner law elute you know, you win or lose every day. Yeah. Which is really like, Oh, this is great. This is how I can set myself up to win every day is to think about what is in my control and work on that.
Betsy Furler 19:02
Yeah, I'm amazed by elite athletes. I'm not I'm not an athlete in itself. And so I never I never thought about this world until really like, a few years ago, but I'm amazed by elite athletes and, and their mindset and ability to get past all sorts of obstacles, you know, because there's lots of people who are have the physical talent, and, but they're not that many people who can have the physical talent and the talent with using their mindset in the right way. And I think the same thing with, you know, directors of film and therapists and, you know, business owners and everything, like that mindset piece is so, so important.
Lanie Zipoy 19:51
It makes or breaks anything and having, you know, been an athlete myself and pitching at the collegiate level. It does how you how you end Winter will change everything. And so yeah, so it's great to have to have those lessons. And you know, as I went into my production, the other thing that I really wanted to think about was how to control the environment where not only is the film, what people are going to see out in the audience, something that I would be proud of, but the environment in which we worked, I would be proud of. And I think that that's the call for everybody as well working and as we said, we met on that conference call with Dell, when I've been so, you know, inspired by is the work that they are doing to support their staff in ways and that means so much. And so, you know, for me, that was the other part of being the director and being sort of, you know, front and center is how can I support the other people I'm working with, they may not have had concussions but a lot of people are dealing with something right like life is a pre existing condition is what I say.
It brings you something
Betsy Furler 21:00
Yeah, and that's true. And we all have differences in the way we think and, and work. And the more you can make someone comfortable, the more you can get out of them. You know, from just a selfish standpoint, whether you're an actor or a company, the more you can, the more comfortable and valued that your employees feel, the better they're going to work for you. So, you know, whether you're making a film or making computers, that is so important, and I think it also, you know, you also gain the respect and the loyalty in that way, as I'm sure that people loved everyone who, who worked on your film just absolutely loved it and will carry it with them forever because of they felt that respect.
Lanie Zipoy 21:53
Thank you. Yeah, I think they did. We're all still in each other's orbits and still keep in touch. You know, we're sort of family In a way is what it would it created. And we're all looking for ways to work together again, because it was so joyous, we looked forward to every day, even if it meant we were on set at 6am. We were very happy to be there, you know, and that, that says something. And you know, the other part was honestly, I didn't write the script that was by CISA, Hutchinson, but it has something to say about this world. And so when you also work on projects that people feel engaged with and feel are really important. That also helps. So I was very fortunate to have that on my side as well.
Betsy Furler 22:33
Yes. So since we are all in various forms of quarantine or shelter in place, and would you be willing to talk a little bit about how you have reacted to, I think your shelter in place, correct?
Lanie Zipoy 22:47
Yeah, yeah, I'm a shelter in place in New York City. You know, I have, I think that a lot of things have really prepared me for this moment. And this is where you know, somebody He said to me, Well, your concussions have been your greatest teacher. And I think that that is true even if I didn't want to accept that at certain points. But you know, there are a couple of things that happen when you have a traumatic brain injury. First of all, it happens in an instant and your life has changed. You're completely different, how you orient to the world, the things that I need to do now, to prep myself for a project are different than they were before. And that changed immediately in a heartbeat. And I had no control over that. And that's sort of I think, what we're feeling right now, it didn't happen immediately, but pretty quickly that we went into shelter in place. And so I'm feeling like, oh, my goodness, my life is totally different. Additionally, because of my concussions I've been working from home for for quite a while, partially because of my insomnia. It's just much better, that I don't have a nine to five job where I have to be somewhere for long periods of time at the same time in the morning. I can get up some mornings or on a film shoot it's a few weeks ago. Do that. But this way I can control my schedule. I think the other thing is is that you know, when you're when you have the compression often you're off devices and I highly recommend that to people I think be as connected as you can be, but definitely find time not to be connected. And just be with yourself and let your mind rest because that is really good, especially when things seem scary and overwhelming out in the world. And then like I said, you know, alluded to earlier, you know, I, if I'm feeling down or out of place, I find something whether it's listening to a silly pop song or watching a Corgi video, and I just give myself that breath to do it or if it's meditation, whatever it is, that we need to sort of set us right is really, really important. And you know, I feel like those are great lessons that I've learned from from concussions also I've to heal. I've also had to self isolate, but I I will say I do remember in the early days of my self isolation from concussions just how difficult that was because I am naturally gregarious person, I am a New Yorker I do like going out and enjoying it. So I understand the sort of existential dilemma and crisis we're in, but then the real need for, for people and for seen others and I get it. It's really, really tough and challenging. But I think as we do it more and as we get more used to it, it becomes a little bit easier.
Betsy Furler 25:32
Yeah, I say that I'm, I'm a very extreme extrovert and I don't just need to talk to people and see them on zoom. Or see one person at a time I need 150 feet or on the street or whatever. Like that is 100% where I get my energy and so I've been really having to be creative about how I how I get, you know, get enough people time into my life. My my son, my 22 year old son, which my podcast listeners know, but yeah, he had, he's had a very rare autoimmune disease his whole life. And then he developed autoimmune encephalitis and he has a acquired brain injury because of it. He's doing absolutely great. But there are times you know, still, like you were saying, where his brain just doesn't work the same as it did before. But he is really rocked this whole shelter in place thing, we have pretty much quarantine him from the beginning, because we don't want him to catch it. And so, you know, we've also isolated him a bit from the rest of the family. And because he's been in the hospital so many times and sick so much, he's just like, you know, hey, yeah, let me sit and watch Disney Channel for, you know, 12 hours. And, and yeah, I mean, he's still coming out and we try to walk and everything but it's really been so much easier on him than that. The rest of my extremely extroverted family, we're all extroverts. And and so, you know, we're all like, Hey, where can we drive? Is Starbucks drive thru open?
Lanie Zipoy 27:10
Right, right. Yeah, I think it is a combination of figuring out what it is that you can possibly do to, you know, stop yourself from, you know, having anxiety about this or not seeing people. I totally, I totally think that but I also just know, and I think this is that we're adaptable. And sometimes we think we're not, or that we can't handle change. But I have seen people faced with so much in my lifetime, and they've been able to figure out a way to make it through and whether that's illness, whether that's, you know, changing in the brain, you know, brain injury, whatever it is, but I trust that we can figure out a way you know, a friend of mine on zoom last night, I was talking to a friend but her husband was in the background. He yelled off camera. Manny, is there any hope? And I said, Yeah, there's always hope. There's always hope.
Betsy Furler 28:05
Absolutely. There is always hope. And I think one thing that people with any sort of disability are difference and you know, diagnosed with any kind of condition or medical problem. And, you know, people will say, oh, they're so resilient. And it's like, Yeah, they are. But you know what, we all are that resilient. But they've had the chance to prove that. Yes. So you've had so you now know, you can get hit on the head and almost die and, and then make this amazing film. Yeah. Wait, before that. You probably thought if I got hit on the head. I'm done.
Lanie Zipoy 28:45
Yeah, yeah, I would have never imagined I would recover in the way that I did. Right. And I didn't know that I could live with certain things day to day. The way that I the way that I do and I but I'm not the only one. I see that. I have a lot of friends who have suffered traumatic brain injuries and other things. And I watch what they do and I marvel. And the truth is, is use. As you mentioned earlier, a lot of times when people see me or see my friends who have TBI is they have no idea. Like none like we don't we don't present anything that wouldn't necessarily make them think that we are living a little bit differently. And so yeah, but I have seen resilience and in all of its forms, and I know that even though this is tough, but we will find ways to make it through
Betsy Furler 29:31
we will and will probably be much better off to all said and done. I just see. I know, you know, just the slowing down of our society, the less time spent in traffic the less quote unquote busy for the sake of being busy. You know, we we would go out to dinner and spend so much time just driving back and forth from the restaurant or all sorts of different things where it's like yeah, Now that we're not doing that anymore, I really, I really don't miss it. I'm really enjoying walking in my neighborhood and chatting with neighbors I haven't seen in 15 years sometime. And I think I think that it's I think it's all gonna be okay.
Lanie Zipoy 30:16
Yeah, I mean, I think I think it will be really rough before it's okay. But I think it will be too. I think it's just us learning new ways and learning new ways of support. You know, in the short term, yes, I'm concerned because most of my friends are part of the gig economy. And they're artists without a job. So yeah, so so in the short term carrying a lot of fear, and I'm concerned about them. But you know, another thing I learned that is also helping me in this is that my film has been accepted to a few festivals, but as to when they are happening, I'm not sure and I'm waiting to hear from a bunch of other festivals, but also they don't know what's happening, right. So there's all this like, right, what's next, I was planning on having the premiere of my festival in just about six weeks and now it's like, I I don't know when it's gonna happen. But I saw this film about a month ago at BAM called Kane river that was made in the 1980s and independent African American film. And the filmmaker at 41 died of a heart attack right before anything was going to happen and is shown at one festival. This movie took almost 40 years to be released into cinemas, I cried, you know, as a filmmaker, I cried when I watched it thinking about that. But his children who were 10 years old around the time that he passed away, got to see it. And they said that it was like having their father standing right next to them again, which is going to choke me out thinking about what I thought there is a way like this is not the way he envisioned this is probably not what he would have wanted. But audiences got to connect with this film 40 years later. And there was something about that, that as you know, as I was starting to understand that the pandemic would also affect the release of my film in some way that I was like, Okay, I can be okay with that. I'm not in control, it will happen in some way. I hope it's not four years from now that it's seen, but I will just trust that it will happen in the way that it's supposed to at this point.
Betsy Furler 32:11
Well, and I actually had like an incredible week. So as you know, and I think my listeners know, I have a start up as a start up and my saw I have a software solution for employers to use to support their employees with all different kinds of brains. Yep. And, you know, I thought as this was kind of coming on, and I've known since China, hey, I was like, it's gonna come here like, this is logical, right? So what am I gonna do? And I thought, you know, at first I thought, whoa, I'm not gonna get any funding for my company. This is going to be so hard. I'm not going to get to pitch I'm, Oh, my goodness. Now South by Southwest is, you know, not happy and, and then last week, I had my virtual pitch event on Monday of last week, you and I spoke to Dell on what it was that Thursday. Yep. And another computer company. He contacted me like just off of LinkedIn out of the blue. Like, tell us about your software, we might need to use it. I mean, it was just like kind of a amazing week. And I love it. I love it. And it just shows that even though it's not happening in the way we thought it was gonna happen. Again, we're not really in control of that. So yeah, so I know your film is going to thrive, and I personally can't wait to see it. Thank you. And I would love for our audience to be able to follow you keep in touch. So how can they find out more about you find out more about the film and keep in touch with you.
Lanie Zipoy 33:40
Yeah, that would be great. So if they go to my website, which is just my name laniezipoy.com that is one place that they can keep in touch with me. And the film is at the subject. movie.com and yeah, those are two great places to keep In Touch, and we'll be announcing everything either on my site or probably both about what's coming up for the premieres
Betsy Furler 34:07
Awesome. Well, yes, I look so forward to staying in touch and, and then I'll share all of that information in the show notes for this podcast. But then, as I get information from you in the future, I'll also share it on my pages so my audience can see that
Lanie Zipoy 34:22
well, but say, I want to just say thank you so much. This has been great. I've really enjoyed and learned a lot from listening to the other guests who have been on your podcast and I'm just grateful to be able to talk to you today.
Betsy Furler 34:33
Well, thank you so much. And thank you to my audience for listening today. And please subscribe to the podcast review rate the podcast, you can do it on whatever podcast platform you're listening to this on. And please continue to listen, listen to the shows. You can contact me on LinkedIn at Betsy Furler. It's Fs and Frank. You are le AR my software can be. You can find out more about that. At www dot for all abilities COMM And through there you can also get to my blog where you can also find out more about me and other things that I do. So thanks for listening today. I will talk to you soon